Posts by Cold Steel

28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

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Cold Steel

I know what you mean.

I've been reading more of the Red Dragon, and I can't believe grown people are interpreting scripture in this fashion. I've read a number of various takes on what the book of Revelation means, and this book is by far the most incompetent. When a group of men (who have no degrees in ancient scripture or knowledge of apocalyptic writing) purposely take an English translation of a document and incorrectly apply homemade interpretations is laughable. When the WT people take a literal prophecy, such as the one cited above, and apply completely irrational interpretations to them isn't light, new or otherwise; it's fraud. It's like that compulsive liar on SNL.

"Yeah...that beast is...ummm...the United Nations...yeah...that's the ticket. And as I was telling my wife...uh...Morgan Fairchild...yeah, that's right...that the dragon was the...uh...Pope, yeah, and...the seven angels were B52s, yeah, and...." In fact, they ought to make him the official spokesman. One source states concerning the pathological liar: "This person may not be completely rooted in reality, believing the lies they tell, often in an effort to remedy low self esteem. Unlike telling a few fibs here and there, or slightly exaggerating the truth once in a while, the pathological liar lies about literally every aspect of his or her life."

I think the folks at Bethel do suffer from low self-esteem. If they couldn't find themselves in the Bible, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. So Israel becomes "spiritual Israel" which becomes "Jehovah's Witnesses." And the two prophets are merely figurative references to today's pioneers. Anything is up for negotiation. This same source says: "Being lied to on a consistent basis is not only frustrating but also disrespectful to the other person."

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkYNBwCEeH4

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28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

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Cold Steel

I'd rather have a hard copy. I'll ask the pioneers for one and see if they cobble one up.

How does one tell whether a prophecy is to be taken literally or is figuratively?

Let's take the JW Revelation book (hereafter called "Red Dragon") up on it's argument and compare Ezekiel 37 to the prophecy in Revelation:

Note how the vision is given. The Lord explains the resurrection process. First the body is formed, then breath is put into the body. In Hebrew, the word for "breath" and "spirit" is the same, so the breath represents the life, or the spirit of man. This entire experience is a prophecy, the Lord states. And who is the body being reanimated? Behold, saith the Lord, "these bones are the whole house of Israel" which will be restored through the power of God.

Now take the prophecy in Isaiah 53. Christians believe it's an obvious reference to Jesus Christ; however, most Jewish scholars believe it refers to the nation of Israel, again personified. If one goes back to the end of Isaiah 52, we read:

Verse 10: " The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." But what kind of salvation? How do we know this isn't simply a temporal salvation of the nation of Israel?

Because the books of the Bible were not written in chapters and verses, we sometimes have to go to the previous chapter to fully understand a prophecy. Verse 10, above, is an example. So if we continue to the end of Chapter 52, we read:

Because of the reference to "my servant," if we take it literally, as I believe we should, it makes far more sense. Jesus' suffering was so intense, we can understand why "his visage" (or countenance) was marred more than any man. This is a way of saying that his suffering would be greater than any other man in the human race. This is reflected in the Abbaton Discourse, a very old work, which reports the conversation between the Father and Son regarding the Son's mission:

This, of course, reflects the Christian outlook of the suffering of Christ, who suffered more than any man who ever lived, and did so for the sins of mankind. But notice the nature of the prophecies. Ezekiel's prophecy of the resurrection of a man was explained by the Lord as the restoration of Israel. But Isaiah 53, according to Jewish scholars, also is figurative and represents the nation of Israel. But Christians see this "suffering servant" as a spot-on prophecy of the Messiah.

Finally, going to Revelation 11, we read:

The only figurative aspects here are clearly stated. There is a literal temple that John is measuring, indicating that the Jews will build another temple before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. The prophecy of the two witnesses, or prophets, also appears to be quite literal. The figurative representations aren't the two prophets, but the two olive trees and two candlesticks. The Lord also is quite clear in saying, "I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy" three and a half years. Further, we read that the Beast and the False Prophet will finally overcome the two prophets and leave their bodies on the streets of Jerusalem:

There is no indication that this is figurative in any way. The prophets were figuratively depicted by the two olive trees and two candlesticks. Now we're told in the Red Dragon that these witnesses aren't to be taken literally, but that they represent the combined forces of Jehovah's Witnesses, who were figuratively killed and then figuratively resurrected in 1924 by a resurgence of dedication. The trumps sounded by the angels, while clearly figurative, they say are declarations and proclaimations of the Society, which, the Red Dragon indicates, rocked the world leaders in fear.

So it's nice being part of biblical fulfillment where even God, the great Jehovah, is describing the work done by the Governing Body and the forces of the two prophets who represent them. Everything stays nice and unprovable. It's all invisible and no need for flashy miracles. Every prophecy means something else than what you think it is. But I think the JWs can't keep this up forever. Or can they? Those pioneers who visited me seem awfully convinced that the Red Dragon contains great wisdom. That anyone can put any credance into it at all is, to me, astounding.

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32

Raised On the Third Day?

by TTATTelder in

i have some potentially controversial questions.. i have always wondered about these things in the back of my mind, but i would immediately dismiss them.

now i am giving myself permission to explore them further.... a lot of attention is given to how big the sacrifice was on the part of jesus and god when jesus laid down his life.

as the story goes, jesus gave his life for our sins and then was miraculously raised back to life a couple of days later.. consider this.

Cold Steel

Leika: JWs do serve God for what they get out of it. Why go door to door if there's no paradise? I don't understand why this is considered a bad thing. It seems quite reasonable given the circumstances.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses understand very little about the fall or the atonement. They believe Adam and Eve mortally sinned by partaking of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. But God wouldn’t be God if he had no foreknowledge of events. He purposely placed the couple in an environment with an arch-deceiver and knew full well that Adam and Eve would fall. In fact, Jesus was selected beforehand to be mankind’s redeemer and intercessor. That’s why Methodist scholar Margaret Barker has written extensively on the fact that the earliest Hebrews saw Yahweh, not as the Father-God, but as one of God’s preeminent sons and intercessor. Christians, on the other hand, recognized Jesus as the Father’s only begotten Son.

The Watchtower philosophy has always been one of restoration. Jesus died to restore man to his previous status as a garden-dwelling “pet” of the Father’s, living apart as inferior to the angels.

But most Christian sects see the sacrifice of Jesus as moving man up exponentially. Instead of moving man back into a garden, the Father’s intent was to use the atonement to advance man into becoming like Christ, becoming joint heirs with Christ.

Adam and Eve, as created, did not know good from evil. They had no glory, and their bodies were simply immortal and nothing more. With the atonement, man had the potential to become a great being of both power and glory. Resurrected with a perfected body of flesh and bones, Jesus was able to pass through ceilings and closed doors, as well as ascend into heaven and to change his appearance. Had he shown himself to the apostles in all of his glory, he would have burned them to cinders. Adam and Eve could not have generated that power and glory, but those who receive eternal life can attain to the same glory. As John wrote:

Through the atonement, man went from being merely a creation to being sons and daughters of God. As such, we became eligible to becoming part of the royal family. As the Greek Orthodox put it, “GOD became as man, so that MAN may become as God.”

DS211: [Jesus] also didn’t start the “preaching campaign” until he was approx 33 or whatever and only preached 3.5 years....yet the WT wants all to preach their entire lives.

Yes, and there’s no scriptural support for that at all. Anciently, people were called of God and ordained to fulfill such missions which were, by the way, of limited duration. Recall, too, that Jesus’ primary mission was to establish his church and, more specifically, to be “lifted up.” Jesus’ primary mission was to fulfill the demands of Justice, allowing mankind not only to be restored to life, but to gain eligibility for a major upgrade.

"...for when we see him, we will be
like him, for we shall see him as he
is. And every man that hath this
hope in him purifieth himself, even
as [Jesus] is pure."

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28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

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Cold Steel

Thanks again, and especially to you, Randy and Kaik. Great points.

This "replacement theology" would be difficult to pull off if people would read the source material. I, too, approached the study of Revelation with some trepidation; however, after one reads a few prophecy books, it all starts to make sense. The best way to do it, I've found, is to read conflicting opinions and books. So far, the books I've gotten the most use out of are two books by evangelical writer Joel Richardson. I have some minor difference of opinions with him, but on the whole, he's really opened my mind. I was a bit disappointed that he didn't cover the two prophets of Revelation 11, but that's because he has no clear cut views on them. Clearly, according to John, these two prophets will be two men, but will they be ancient prophets who were "translated" or men from our own dispensation?

I was recently surprised to learn that the JWs don't believe in translated beings like Enoch, possibly Moses, Elijah and John. And since they don't believe in modern prophets (except GB members acting in concert), the two prophets of Revelation have to be composite representations. This creates enormous problems in one's eschatology. You see, the two prophets were represented by Zechariah as two candlesticks. We're told, " These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. " (See Zechariah 4:3 .) So if the two trees and two candlesticks represent the two witnesses, how can any theologian worth his salt then turn around and say the two witnesses, in turn, represent all the JW missionaries doing missionary work today, what are we to make of them being able to have fire proceding out of their mouth to destroy their enemies or " have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy" or "have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues"? Also, how can these two prophets be "killed" and then resurrected? The authors of this abomination say this vision was just a representative vision, like the one Ezekiel had of the dry bones coming together and resurrecting, representing the restoration of the kingdom. But Ezekiel makes it clear what the relationship between his vision and the meaning was. But John presents his prophecy as a literal prophecy.

If one reads Isaiah 53, it's clear the prophet is speaking of Christ. If one reads Zechariah 12-14, it's clearly literal. Or if one reads Ezekiel 38-39, it's clear that the prophecy is, again, literal. But give the GB any authority to interpret the scriptures and suddenly everything is figurative and invisible. Suddenly miracles cease and angels' trumpets become WTBTS decrees. Darkness in prophecy becomes not literal darkness, but "spiritual" darkness. In other words, if you can't produce real miracles and prophecy fulfillment, then it goes back to the fastest gun in the West routine. "You guys wanna see it again?"

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28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

.

Cold Steel

I've read many bad books on the book of Revelation. This one was BY FAR the worst. If any work were to violate that last chapter of Revelation, the one that states: " For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Rev. 22:18-19)

I suppose this nonsense is related to the fact that the WTBTS discourages higher education. They take literal prophecies and turn them into figurative ones; then they obfuscate the facts in an attempt to make it sound more reasonable, but it's clear they're fudging the details in an attempt to distract the reader from what the scripture is saying. In the chapter dealing with Revelation 11, for example, John is told to measure the third temple with a rod. But this has to be a spiritual or figurative temple since the third temple does not exist! Never mind that most Christians note that Ezekiel gives the Jews detailed instructions on how to build the temple and, given this reference by John, conclude that the temple has yet to be built. The authors of the red book don't buy into the idea that the Jews or Jerusalem has any part of the latter days. To them, the temple is a spiritual representation; Jerusalem is Israel, which in turn is "spiritual Israel" which is to say...them. The two prophets of Chapter 11 are figurative and they represent the Bible Students before 1924. In 1924, they had a huge revival which, they said, frightened all the rest of Christendom. This revival was the resurrection of the two prophets and all the pioneers are the fulfillment of those two prophets. It's all complete fantasy.

If the members of the WTBTS knew what crap this red book is, they'd be embarrassed. It goes beyond bad exegeses and the copy I have actually has notes in it, as though the reader was taking it seriously. If people would just read the Bible and spend less time reading the publications, it might dawn on them that they're being bamboozled.

David Koresch did the same thing. He'd take one of the great kingdoms symbolized by horns and beasts in Daniel and Revelation and tell his followers that it represented their little compound in Texas. The red book also reproduces "decrees" such as "A Challenge to World Leaders" (1922) and "A Warning to All Christians" (1923). Again, these without one iota of authority from God. How can they make such decrees without first being commanded? If one examines the Old and New Testaments, the Lord usually commands such decrees or other actions. The leadership, with no revelation, decides (on authority it believes it gets from the Bible) to issue these challenges and warnings. The word the scriptures use for such unauthorized actions, I believe, is "presumptuous."

But this red book on Revelation is still one I'd like in my library.

P.S. -- The book the Pioneers loaned me has the dates the guy read each chapter. Most were read in 1995, so thanks for the changes. And yes, I wondered how the writers were able to apply things to themselves, such as Jerusalem = Israel = Spiritual Israel = WTBTS, especially when Jerusalem was "spiritually" called "Sodom and Egypt"! John also added, "and where our Lord was crucified." If he said Jerusalem was spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, how can the Society then say that Jerusalem is spiritual Israel? Of course, if they believe themselves to be the faithful and discreet slave, then they get to determine the menus for the spiritual food, right?

Thanks for all the responses.

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28

Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand

by Cold Steel in

it's a rather large red book.. if i wanted to purchase one from a pioneer, how much would it cost?.

i'm reading a borrowed copy now.. thanks!.

.

Cold Steel

It's a rather large red book.

If I wanted to purchase one from a Pioneer, how much would it cost?

I'm reading a borrowed copy now.

Thanks!

25

should christains own cats?

by unstopableravens in

is it appropriate for a christian to own a cat, in light of their past pagan religious affiliation and the medical information that is now coming to light?

it would be misleading to answer this question with either a simple yes or a no.

the scriptural answer of necessity must be a qualified one, and it is easy to see why.

Cold Steel

How can one NOT like cats?

Most other domesticated animals instinctively like cats...especially kittens. When mothers of kittens die, or vanish, it usually doesn't take a kitten long to find a new "mom" and worm their ways into a family (animal or human). Dogs like kittens, horses like them, monkeys and apes like them. Even Governing Body members reputably like them (invisibly, of course).

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25

should christains own cats?

by unstopableravens in

is it appropriate for a christian to own a cat, in light of their past pagan religious affiliation and the medical information that is now coming to light?

it would be misleading to answer this question with either a simple yes or a no.

the scriptural answer of necessity must be a qualified one, and it is easy to see why.

Cold Steel

32

Raised On the Third Day?

by TTATTelder in

i have some potentially controversial questions.. i have always wondered about these things in the back of my mind, but i would immediately dismiss them.

now i am giving myself permission to explore them further.... a lot of attention is given to how big the sacrifice was on the part of jesus and god when jesus laid down his life.

as the story goes, jesus gave his life for our sins and then was miraculously raised back to life a couple of days later.. consider this.

Cold Steel

The tragedy behind the Savior's suffering is that he, being perfect, was subjected to what no other man could have suffered, or endured. Certainly, there were many in Jesus' day who died a horrible death on the cross; however, Jesus' most severe suffering began in the Garden. Both the fall of man and his redemption began in a garden. And though no one knows the extent of what he suffered, he had to take upon himself the sins of this entire world. This means that in some way we don't understand, he experienced everything...every sickness, every infirmity, every emotional and physical woe suffered by every man, woman and child since the Earth began; thus, no one can ever say they suffered more because he suffered your afflictions.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53)

As many see it, the Lord took upon himself the ills of mankind to such an extent that his suffering was more than any mortal could have withstood. By the time he was arrested, he had gone through much of his suffering; a suffering that caused him to shake with pain and bleed from every pore. In the Discourse on the Abbaton, a very old work, we see just how bad the suffering was said to have been:

And [the Father] heaved sighs over [Messiah], saying, 'If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.’ And My Father said unto Me, ‘If I put breath into him, My beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to his primal state.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command.’” (Ernest A. Wallis Budge, Coptic Martyrdoms (London: British Museum, 1914))

According to this text, the Messiah's mission will be one of extreme anguish:

There are souls that have been put away with thee under My throne, and it is their sins which will bend thee down under a yoke of iron and make thee like a calf whose eyes grow dim with suffering, and will choke thy spirit as with a yoke; because of the sins of these souls thy tongue will cleave to the roof of my mouth. Art thou willing to endure such things?

The Messiah will ask the Holy One, blessed be He: Will my suffering last many years?

The Holy One, blessed be He, will reply: Upon thy life and the life of My head, it is a period of seven years which I have decreed for thee. But if thy soul is sad at the prospect of thy suffering, I shall at this moment banish these sinful souls.

The Messiah will say: Master of the universe, with joy in my soul and gladness in my heart I take this suffering upon myself, provided that not one person in Israel perish; that not only those who are alive be saved in my days, but that also those who are dead, who died from the days of Adam up to the time of redemption; and that not only these be saved in my days, but also those who died as abortions; and that not only these be saved in my days, but all those whom Thou thoughtest to create [evidently as mortals] but were not created. Such are the things I desire, and for these I am ready to take upon myself [whatever Thou decreest].

The suffering and death of the Messiah was required for our salvation, and even God himself could not change that (despite what the Muslims think). The reason is that God must balance Justice with Compassion. His compassion brought about the redemption, but it was not an easy measure for either the Father or Son because of the suffering that was required, which had to be a power of a God, perfect in every way. So it wasn't the death that they drew back from, but the intense suffering that was of concern.

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1

I Want Money $$$

by Cold Steel in

something unique from 1979.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gzjm-6yuqc .

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Cold Steel

Something unique from 1979.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gzjm-6yUQc

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